EMW

We have a loving and righteous God, who will ultimately be fair with everyone. Our little finite minds cannot comprehend His plan, and there are times when I know I just need to take His Word at face value, not knowing how He will accomplish what He says. In Romans 1:20, God tells us that no one will have the excuse of not knowing Him when judgment day comes. He says that just viewing His creation makes everyone aware of Him. Furthermore, His Holy Spirit reaches out to every heart--some accept and some reject. How that exactly works I will only know when I get up to heaven. But, what I do know for sure, is that is how it works because God said so. How much fairer can God be in that He sent His only Son to earth to die for our sins, and all one needs to do to be saved is believe and have faith in His Son, making Him the Lord of their life--how much more simpler can that be? He has given us a gift that we do not deserve, and all we have to do is reach out and receive it. How ubsurd is it for one to reject such a gift, turn around and say they deserve to get into heaven, and then when not allowed in to say that it is unfair?

One biblical fact we must all realize is that from God's standpoint, we are all sinners and no one is "good." Our definition of "good" is relative to our environment. We compare ourselves to each other, and then determine who acts in better ways than others. Then we arbitrarily make the determination on who is good and who is bad. This is not the case with God. God's yardstick for "good" is His Son, Jesus Christ. To be "good", one must be sinless like His Son. If we compare ourselves to Him, then we immediately realize how amazingly sinful and disgusting we ALL are, and that even the "most good" person that every lived, in God's eyes, is a terrible sinner deserving of hell fire. If a person does not realize how infinitely inadequate each and everyone of us is, and how we desperately need to look 100% to the work of Jesus Christ on the Cross for our salvation, then that person is not able to truly ask for foregiveness of their sins since they are believing they can rely in part or entirely on their own works. When we try to come before God to present our own works to Him in a manner to earn salvation, we are told that God see's these as "filthy rags" (literally in the Hebrew "used menstral clothes"--apologies for the graphic wording, but these are God's Words, and I want to be true to the text, and convey just how disgusting our perceived righteous acts are before God when we try to look in any way to our own works instead of resting 100% on the work of Jesus Christ on the Cross)--Isaiah 64:5-6. This is the fallacy of the world, that is, that if we are truly "good" in our own eyes, then our loving God can do nothing else but accept us into heaven. This is another deception of the world, and is contrary to what the Bible explicitly teaches.

That makes a lot of sense. What is your opinion pertaining to Church teaching as quoted here?

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, following historic Christian theology since the time of the early Church Fathers, refers to the Catholic Church as "the universal sacrament of salvation" (CCC 774–776), and states: "The Church in this world is the sacrament of salvation, the sign and the instrument of the communion of God and men" (CCC 780).

Many people misunderstand the nature of this teaching.

Indifferentists, going to one extreme, claim that it makes no difference what church one belongs to. Certain radical traditionalists, going to the other extreme, claim that unless one is a full-fledged, baptized member of the Catholic Church, one will be damned.

The Fathers likewise affirm the possibility of salvation for those who lived before Christ and who were not part of Israel, the Old Testament People of God.

However, for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Salvati ... Church.asp

Brad wrote:So, you can believe that you can enter heaven without Jesus, but you will not like the ultimate outcome of that belief. I would take a look at your current belief structure, and then determine its foundation. What is supporting your beliefs? If it is only what you would like it to be, or what feels right to you, that is a very weak foundation. Be absolutely sure in decision on what to believe, since it is literally the most important decision you will make in your life. I look to the Word of God for my belief, and I see the prophecies in this book (many very detailed prophecies that have been 100% accurate) as the proof that this book is truly God's Word. I feel 100% secure in my beliefs. How about you?

I think that you will find that many people on here(although I can only speak for myself, but I believe I have seen this in personal opinion in debates) are at the searching stage of faith, in which we are firmly grounded in what we have been taught, but are also looking for the truth for ourselves, which is where some of us might differ in opinion from the Church at this particular point in time.

Personally, at this time I believe that as Christians we can get into heaven, but that we do not have the authority or judgment to say things like: Atheist! Hell! Muslim! Hell! Buddhist! Hell!

I believe that God will have mercy on those that did their best to live a lifestyle like Jesus, and perhaps through Purgatory people of other faith can enter heaven. I quote C.S. Lewis again from Mere Christianity (I find myself agreeing with a great deal he has written):

People often think of Christian morality as a kind of bargain in which God says, "If you keep a lot of rules I'll reward you, and if you don't I'll do the other thing."...I would much rather say that every time you make a choice you are turning the central part of you, the part of you that chooses, into something a little different...all your life long you are slowly turning this central thing either into a heavenly creature or into a hellish creature: either into a creature that is in harmony with God, and with other creatures, and itself, or else into one that is in a state of war and hatred with God, its fellow creatures, and itself.
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If you are a Christian you do not have to believe that all the other religions are simply wrong all through...If you are a Christian, you are free to think that all religions, even the queerest ones, contain at least some hint of the truth...But of course, being a Christian does mean thinking that where Christianity differs from other religions, Christianity is right and they are wrong. As in arithmetic-there is only one right answer to a sum, and all other answers are wrong, but some of the wrong answers are much nearer being right than others...

Therefore, I have come to the conclusion in my faith journey that while a lot of people are wrong in their beliefs, like in math I don't think God will mark them as completely wrong - perhaps He gives them points for trying, for how close they are to the answer, for the work they've done, and therefore they don't outright fail. You?

That sounds nice, that one can work their way into heaven, but it is just not biblical. The following is an excerpt from a Bible study on the site "FoundationsForOurFaith.com" discussing faith vs. Works.

One of the strongest, if not the strongest, passages in the Bible that supports the biblical doctrine of salvation through faith alone is found in Paul’s epistle to the church of Ephesus. In this epistle Paul writes, “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.” (NKJ: Ephesians 2:8-9) In this passage, Paul twice states that salvation comes through faith alone apart from works. In the first verse of the passage, Paul states, “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves.” The word “grace” means unmerited or unearned favor, and the phrase “this not from yourselves” points to the fact that His favor or love has nothing to do with who we are or what we do. In this first verse, we are told that our salvation comes through our faith in Jesus Christ, and has nothing to do with us, but everything to do with God. Then, in the next verse, Paul states the same thought again, but even in a simpler manner, just in case we did not understand the first verse, “it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.” In this second verse, we are told that salvation is a gift from God to us, and has nothing to do with our works. The final phrase, “lest anyone should boast,” let’s us know that when we stand before God, and He asks us why we think we should get into heaven, then we will simply point to His Son and say, “because I accepted your Son as my Lord and Savior, and His blood has washed away all of my sins.” In that day, there will be no one saying “and in addition to the work of Jesus Christ on the Cross, look what I also did” There shall be no boasting from anyone, for our Lord and Savior will have done all the work.

Salvation through faith alone, apart from works, is a clear message given to us throughout the Bible. The following is a selection of such passages:

“But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.” (NKJ: Romans 3:21-26)

“Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. “ (NKJ: Romans 3:27-28)

“What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,…” (NKJ: Romans 4:1-5)

“Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.” (NKJ: Romans 5:1-2)

“But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.” (NKJ: Romans 5:15)

“For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.” (NKJ: Romans 6:14)

“but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.” (NKJ: Romans 9:31-32)

“And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.” (NKJ: Romans 6:6)

“Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,…” (NKJ: II Timothy 1:8-10)

“knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.” (NKJ: Galatians 2:16)


“This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?” (NKJ: Galatians 3:2-3) Paul here points out the “foolish” notion held by some people that though one receives the Holy Spirit through faith, that one then through works is made righteous. The biblical truth Paul is teaching is that what is begun in the Spirit is completed by the Spirit, and that the flesh, i.e. works thereof, have no place in our becoming righteous before God.

“Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.” (NKJ: Galatians 5:1-5)


I would greatly encourage you to go to that site and read the entire Bible study--it is a quick read--and then let me know if you still feel as strongly about one earning their way to heaven. We must always look to God's Word for our beliefs, and never let the words of men detour us from His truth. God's Word must always be on higher ground than any denominational doctrines/dogma (I include Catholicism as a denomination).

Interesting quote. However, I do not see any Scripture quotations, but just the words of mere men. They may be sincere about their words, and even believe that God gave them their revelations. However, in comparing these words to Scripture, I find them,to be contrary to God's Word. I believe them to be false, and words of men trying to set apart their religious beliefs in a way that is reminiscent of a Christian cult, that is, that faith in Jesus Christ as one's Lord and Savior is not enough, but one must be a member of their special group and belief structure (of which some beliefs are non-biblical or even contrary to God's Word). Please foregive the directness, but I like to be upfront and direct with my thoughts so as not to confuse others and/or make them have to try and read between the lines.

I would enjoy seeing the Scriptures that are used to support these statements. Then we can have a biblical discussion regarding the interpretation of the related verses. As it stands, there is absolutely no biblical basis for these statements.

C.S. Lewis was a great Christian writer, but his own words cannot be used to support one's beliefs--he is just a sinful and fallable man, just like all the rest of us. It is a dangerous path we take when we use the words of men to support our beliefs, whether a famous writer, our pastor, or even the Pope. No man is above God's Word.

That is what is so wonderful about our Bible. We need not look to any other source for the basis of our faith, and for the pure truth of God. Without exception, any words or statements that contradict His Word can unmistakenly be deemed as false. False doctrines and false prophets can be instantly uncovered when they are compared against His Word. His Word is the ultimate lie detector.

C.S. Lewis was a great Christian writer, but his own words cannot be used to support one's beliefs--he is just a sinful and fallable man, just like all the rest of us. It is a dangerous path we take when we use the words of men to support our beliefs, whether a famous writer, our pastor, or even the Pope. No man is above God's Word.

One can make the argument that man wrote the Bible. And yes, we can agree that God inspired the truth to appear without question in those teachings. However, how can you say that ONLY the Bible has truth, and ANYONE else's opinions are automatically wrong if there is no scripture reference packaged with it? How do we know that God didn't divinely inspire Lewis when he wrote the novel? I think that it is a dangerous path if we denounce all other literatures as false if they have no biblical reference.

Looking through the prologue of his novel, I found something which I think we will all find quite interesting. Lewis, after writing the novel, sent it to four clergymen (Anglican, Methodist, Presbyterian, Roman Catholic) to get their criticism. All were in agreement with what was written. "Though differences might arise among Christians, these would be differences between individuals or schools of thought, not between denominations."

I would like to get your opinion on what YOU disagree with, rather than beliefs regarding (or a lack thereof) scripture that directly supports such literature. Where do you stand from personal belief?

In the Protestant view, the whole of Christian truth is found within the Bible’s pages. Anything extraneous to the Bible is simply non-authoritative, unnecessary, or wrong—and may well hinder one in coming to God.

Catholics, on the other hand, recognize that the Bible does not endorse this view and that, in fact, it is repudiated in Scripture. The true "rule of faith"—as expressed in the Bible itself—is Scripture plus apostolic tradition, as manifested in the living teaching authority of the Catholic Church, to which were entrusted the oral teachings of Jesus and the apostles, along with the authority to interpret Scripture correctly.

I think that therefore our disagreements come from our different ideals and division of Christianity that we follow. But we can agree on Christianity as a whole!

Bradley B Schmidt wrote:Interesting quote. However, I do not see any Scripture quotations, but just the words of mere men. They may be sincere about their words, and even believe that God gave them their revelations. However, in comparing these words to Scripture, I find them,to be contrary to God's Word. I believe them to be false, and words of men trying to set apart their religious beliefs in a way that is reminiscent of a Christian cult, that is, that faith in Jesus Christ as one's Lord and Savior is not enough, but one must be a member of their special group and belief structure (of which some beliefs are non-biblical or even contrary to God's Word). Please foregive the directness, but I like to be upfront and direct with my thoughts so as not to confuse others and/or make them have to try and read between the lines.

I would enjoy seeing the Scriptures that are used to support these statements. Then we can have a biblical discussion regarding the interpretation of the related verses. As it stands, there is absolutely no biblical basis for these statements.

C.S. Lewis was a great Christian writer, but his own words cannot be used to support one's beliefs--he is just a sinful and fallable man, just like all the rest of us. It is a dangerous path we take when we use the words of men to support our beliefs, whether a famous writer, our pastor, or even the Pope. No man is above God's Word.

That is what is so wonderful about our Bible. We need not look to any other source for the basis of our faith, and for the pure truth of God. Without exception, any words or statements that contradict His Word can unmistakenly be deemed as false. False doctrines and false prophets can be instantly uncovered when they are compared against His Word. His Word is the ultimate lie detector.

So the Bible, which was written by men, is more trustworthy than other words written by men on the same subject? Why? Because that was written thousands of years ago? What if God is speaking through people now? How would we know? Kind of a double standard, don't you think?

Brad wrote:That sounds nice, that one can work their way into heaven, but it is just not biblical.
Salvation through faith alone, apart from works, is a clear message given to us throughout the Bible.

And I can find just as many scripture references that clearly are in complete conflict with what you have written. Please do understand that I'm not trying to antagonize you, I'm challenging you to explain fully the position that you are coming from, whether it is only basic Christianity, or a medley of denominations, or one denomination.

The Bible makes it clear that there must be a balanced relationship between our faith and its expression in good works.

James 2:14-18
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
1 Cor 15:58
Therefore, my beloved brothers, be firm, steadfast, always fully devoted to the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.
Heb 6:10
For God is not unjust so as to overlook your work and the love you have demonstrated for his name by having served and continuing to serve the holy ones.
James 2:20-22
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
Mt 16:27
For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.
1 Cor 3:8
The one who plants and the one who waters are equal, and each will receive wages in proportion to his labor.
Col 3:23-24
Whatever you do, do from the heart, as for the Lord and not for others, knowing that you will receive from the Lord the due payment of the inheritance.

The Bible indicates that it is wrong to disturb the balance of works expressing a life of faith. Man is not saved by faith alone.

James 2:24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
James 2:26
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

To the first question regarding how can I say that Christianity is the one and only true religion, and that the Bible is the only true source of religious information. Logical steps:
1) All other religions are in contradiction to Christianity, and the Bible says that it is the only true religion. Therefore, either a) The Bible and the Christian faith are correct, and all other religions are wrong, or b) The Bible is incorrect, and Christianity is a false religion. No other options.
2) The Bible, and no other religious book, has 100% accurate prophecies; therefore, I can solidly place my faith in the Bible and its origin being from God.
3) Therefore, I believe I can safely say that Christianity and the Bible are correct, and the other religions and religious books are incorrect since they are in contrast and opposition to the Bible and its teachings.
4) Since the Bible is the Word of God, based on prophecy, then anything that contradicts this book is wrong per se.
5) Writings that are neutral, i.e. do not contradict or agree, with the Bible must be proven to be correct. And proof is not just because we feel that special warmth in our tummies that they are true. Debates based on feelings and how we wish things to be done, without the existence of quantifiable proof, will be endless debates with no satisfactory conclusion.

One must understand the basis of their beliefs, and the foundations on which they stand. My beliefs have their foundations in the proven Word of God, and I can be 100% confident that my beliefs are correct. How much true confidence can you place in your belief? With such dire consequences if one is incorrect in their beliefs, I choose to build my foundations on the immovable rock, and not the sandy ground of speculation or unproven theory.

I will come back to this with a full response when I have time, but I will put this out there:

How much true confidence can you place in your belief? With such dire consequences if one is incorrect in their beliefs, I choose to build my foundations on the immovable rock, and not the sandy ground of speculation or unproven theory.

Do keep in mind that some of your beliefs are in contradiction with the teachings of some denominational churches. Since they all believe that they are right, if your belief is against theirs, such as your ideals concerning the Eucharist and faith instead of works, then you have made that fatal mistake based on your personal interpretation of scripture. How sure can you be that your nondenominational ideals trump Protestants, or Catholics, or any others?

I place my confidence in what I have written, because you have not been able to prove me wrong. The church agrees with what is written, and there is no conflict. I ask you to counter my posts, and tell me what issues you have with what I have put forth, besides that "it isn't scripture, so it is wrong". Anyone can find a scripture passage to suit what they have to say - this was proven with Jesus and Satan in their debate using scripture.

Regarding the question of faith vs works. Couple of points:

1) The Bible has one author, God. It is infallible and without contradiction. Hence, one of the tools in Scripture interpretation is referred to as "harmony of the Scriptures." Simply put, any interpretation that creates disharmony among the Scriptures is incorrect. Ephesians 2:8-9 expressly and clearly states that we are saved from faith apart from works--no way around it. Many improperly point to James as contradicting Paul's writing in that they say he teaches one must have works. This creates disharmony, and is obviously incorrect. How do we reconcile? James is teaching that true faith produces good works. Good works are the proof that one has a true saving faith. There is a saving faith and a non-saving faith. As James states in verse 2:19, "you believe there is one God, good, even the demons believe that and tremble." (quoting from memory here, so please excuse if a couple of words are out of place). One can have a faith, or belief, that God exists, that He sent His Son to earth to die for our sins, and that if one accepts His Son as their Lord they will be saved. But merely have faith, or belief, that these are true does not save someone. One must accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior to be saved. In verse 2:19, James points to those who are saying they have faith, and he is saying that the demons have a stronger faith than them, that is, they have direct knowledge of these things. But are they saved--certainly not. No matter how strong the demons faith, they have not accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. Please, do me a special favor, and read the Bible study at FoundationsForOurFaith.com on Faith vs Works, which lays this out in much more detail. I would very much like to get your thoughts on that entire discussion. It will only take you 10 or 15 minutes to read.


2) Where would be the joy in salvation that is spoken of all throughout the Scriptures if one needed to depend on their own works for salvation. Life would be agonizing to live, as each day passes, hoping that one's works were good enough, and not knowing that one is saved until after one dies, and then they finally see if their works were good enough. That is the belief of all who hold that works play any role in salvation.

3) As I say these next words, I am talking to you, me, and everyone else in this world. How can you, a disgusting, horrid, abomination before the Lord believe that you can do anything that would even come remotely close to deserving of salvation. And how could someone as vile and wretched as you dare to suggest that the work of Jesus Christ on the Cross was not all sufficient for your salvation. Do you dare to make the statement that your works need to be added to His before you can be saved. Oh how deceived are you to believe that there is anything good in you apart from the saving grace that was bestowed upon you by Jesus Christ. As John writes, "I am the vine, you are the branches. If a man remain in Me and I in him he will bear much fruit. APART FROM ME YOU CAN DO NOTHING." (John 15:5--based on memory) That's right, apart from the power of the Holy Spirit in you, you can do nothing, zero, zilch, absolutely nothing. Phillipians 2:12-13 tells us that God puts the will to do good works inside of us--it is not natural to do good works, that is, good works in God's eyes. Do you understand that, or are you so deceived by your sinful nature that you actually believe that Jesus Christ needs your help to save you.

Please understand that my rant in 3) is focused on all of us. We all to some extent can fall into the trap of thinking much more of ourselves than we should. All glory is of the Lord, and none to us.

In the book of Revelation, we have the saints in heaven throwing their crowns of righteousness before the Lord. Why, because they realize all of their righteous is of Him, and none from themselves. As you picture us standing before the Lord on that day, do you see us jumping up and down high-fiving each other for the great works we did to get into heaven, or do you see us with our heads bowed in awesome reverance for our Lord who through His work alone we received the gift of salvation. Also, why does Scripture refer to faith and salvation as a "gift"? One does not work for a gift, but it is graciously given by the benefactor with no expectation of reciprical payment.

Just going to put out that I am enjoying debating with you Brad, and I'm not taking any offensive and hope the same for you!

The Bible has one author, God. It is infallible and without contradiction.

If there is no contradiction, then how can the scripture references I put forth be incorrect? I don't think that you can misinterpret them at all! For example, even if we cut out the passages by James that you claim are incorrect and fallible, there are still many other passages, WRITTEN BY GOD that assure us that works are taken into consideration! Faith WITHOUT works is meaningless. If you have faith in God, but do nothing to show that, then you cannot be saved. There needs to be a healthy balance. I can agree that just doing good things isn't enough, but can you understand that just believing without putting faith into action (works) won't do you much good?

Where would be the joy in salvation that is spoken of all throughout the Scriptures if one needed to depend on their own works for salvation. Life would be agonizing to live, as each day passes, hoping that one's works were good enough, and not knowing that one is saved until after one dies, and then they finally see if their works were good enough. That is the belief of all who hold that works play any role in salvation.

Therefore my belief of faith plus works cancels this out. One without the other is like a person without food. Both are needed to live.

As for your third point, I can see where you're coming from, but I think that you're misunderstanding the points I am trying to make. First off, just by believing in God we are halfway to getting quickly to heaven. Just as a mother loves her child unconditionally, God does likewise. No matter how "disgusting and horrid" we are, He loves us because we are made in His image. Yes, we are nowhere close to being perfect.

Do you understand that, or are you so deceived by your sinful nature that you actually believe that Jesus Christ needs your help to save you.

Again, you are not understanding my position. Jesus doesn't need our "help" to save ourselves. But the Catholic Church teaches that we need to believe AND that we need to go out and take an active role in doing good. If you are against that, please take it up with the Pope instead of myself - he's probably better at telling our side of the story!

Also, why does Scripture refer to faith and salvation as a "gift"? One does not work for a gift, but it is graciously given by the benefactor with no expectation of reciprical payment.

We are expected to take our gifts, talents, and treasures, and praise God by going out and making full use of what we are given, sharing what we know by doing good. Squandering a gift is wasting it.

Neighborhood Studios wrote: Yes, we are nowhere close to being perfect.

True, but I don't think one should be classified as "a disgusting, horrid, abomination" and also "vile and wretched". It's ideals like that that make me glad to be spiritual and not religious. I can't buy the idea that God put us on this earth to merely exalt him or that "God puts the will to do good works inside of us--it is not natural to do good works", because if that is the case, our existence is pretty much pointless.

What if a man does not believe in God, Brad, but he gives money to charities, adopts special needs children, and sacrifices his life for a homeless man resulting in his death. What if he was a Muslim? These are undeniably good works, are they not? You think God would not be pleased with these works?

wow rackfocus i dont think ive ever said this but...I totally agree with you. lol
and same question for brad from rackfocus, like i honestly just want to know what you think because you have been make good arguements.

Oh how deceived are you to believe that there is anything good in you apart from the saving grace that was bestowed upon you by Jesus Christ.

That mindset does seem to be a bit extreme to be Church teaching. I think that it stems more from your personal interpretation rather than what we as a whole believe. What rackfocus wrote has a good point - most if not all denominations do not teach what you wrote: who would want to go to a church that beat down on how bad we are with negativity?

God would be pleased with those works, because He gave us free will, which had a large role to play in the decisions that the man in the example made by rackfocus.

But Brad,

where do you stand?

I think you mentioned this in a different topic, but where are you coming from? Are your arguments based off of your personal spiritual life, or do you follow a denomination? Do the ideals you profess come from a specific denomination, or is it just what you believe from reading the Bible?