EMW

I see what you are saying. But just to make sure,

You are saying that me asking about god makes it actually a question from god to man? If so, it was meant to be hypothetical.

samuelrj wrote:Trying to give a compliment

Apparently it didnt work.

Just checking. I don't know you well enough to gauge sarcasm yet...

The invisible God, the one you truly and honestly can't see and in true honesty can't/don't believe in has wrapped Himself inside of you in the very fabric of who you are and in the very nature of the questions you ask. You do not believe in God, thus no God thing can, from your perspective, be wrapped up in who you are.

From your view point I am asking you to hear/see something from the other side of a blank wall. But our premises are the same in "essence" though different in "substance". I defacto say there is God. You defacto say there is no God". The premise is identical - a defacto statement. The substance is not.

Therefore the defacto God of my understanding is not asking a question hypothetically, just as you are not asking a question hypothetically when you say "is there a God?" (you are asking a true question, and you conclude with a real answer) "No, there is no God." Based on the premise I cannot prove to you that there is a God, just as you cannot prove to me that there isn't a God.

You confuse the fact that you don't believe in God with the conclusion that there is no God. It is a fact: You do not believe in God. But that fact is NOT the same as your conclusion: "There is no God" You can honestly state the one but cannot prove the other.

Therefore your understanding is directing your conclusions: in your understanding any question that God might ask of you has to be hypothetical. There is no God. No God, means no entity to ask a question, thus your question or even "His" question has got to be a hypothetical.

However, the very fact that you are even asking the question "is there a God?" means that there has to be a God. YOU cannot ask a question about something that has never existed. If it never existed, then it would not be in the mind of man to even contemplate BECAUSE "it" never was and never has been. You can only posit a question of something that is in the mind of man to posit. And it can only be in the mind of man if it really is there.

Take a moment and think of all our mythology, all our questions etc. I can think of a centaur because I know of a horse and a man. I can confuse that fact that there are horses and men with the conclusion that there are Centaurs but I cannot deny that horses and men exist. Think about aliens. I can only think of extraterrestial life because it exist somewhere out there for me to conceive of it. Now I can confuse the fact that there are alien entities out there with my conclusion that they are little green men (as opposed to inter dimensional beings?) but something, some entity, had to give the cause for the thing, the concept, to spawn in the first place.

You as an Atheist can say to me "You are off in your conclusion of what God is" but the fact that I say there is a God cannot be denied, nor can the "archetypal event or the " it" for my statement of fact be denied.

Samuel, you can dispute the understanding of what the God thing is all about. You can even dispute the conclusions that the God squad arrive at concerning the God Dude. But the one thing you cannot do is make the God Dude not exist.... you would have no atheism if you had no God. I do not deny that you say there is no God, but your saying so doesn't make it so. Just like my saying there is a God does not make it so. God exists independently of my saying he exists. We have concepts of God because some God Thing exists and it is because some God Thing does exist that we have atheism.

MAN CANNOT DENY THE EXISTENCE OF SOMETHING HE SAYS DOES NOT EXIST. IF IT NEVER WAS, THEN IT COULD NEVER BE DISCUSSED, CONFIRMED OR DENIED BECAUSE IT NEVER WAS. PERIOD.

We have the concept of God in the human psyche because "God" exist somewhere yet to be discovered. The new world was not the new world, it already existed. It was discovered but was always there. Land exists, land masses exist, water exists etc. and so man could conceive of finding a new world. His finding it did not make it so, its pre-existence did.

Same with God. If there was no God. Period. The end. NO GOD, then there could be no God concept. So whether you like it or not you are not an atheist. You only think you are! Perhaps you are an observer of the bad things people have done with religion but that makes you - not an atheist but a disliker of hate.

It is a true fact: you truly do not believe in God but your disbelief in God has been confused with the conclusion that there is no God. You can have the former as belief. You cannot however prove the latter and in fact the latter proves itself to be impossible.

Hmmmmm...... Missed it by that much

Agent 86

oops!

The invisible God, the one you truly and honestly can't see and in true honesty can't/don't believe in has wrapped Himself inside of you in the very fabric of who you are and in the very nature of the questions you ask. You do not believe in God, thus no God thing can, from your perspective, be wrapped up in who you are.

From your view point I am asking you to hear/see something from the other side of a blank wall. But our premises are the same in "essence" though different in "substance". I defacto say there is God. You defacto say there is no God". The premise is identical - a defacto statement. The substance is not.

Therefore the defacto God of my understanding is not asking a question hypothetically, just as you are not asking a question hypothetically when you say "is there a God?" (you are asking a true question, and you conclude with a real answer) "No, there is no God." Based on the premise I cannot prove to you that there is a God, just as you cannot prove to me that there isn't a God.

You confuse the fact that you don't believe in God with the conclusion that there is no God. It is a fact: You do not believe in God. But that fact is NOT the same as your conclusion: "There is no God" You can honestly state the one but cannot prove the other.

Therefore your understanding is directing your conclusions: in your understanding any question that God might ask of you has to be hypothetical. There is no God. No God, means no entity to ask a question, thus your question or even "His" question has got to be a hypothetical.

However, the very fact that you are even asking the question "is there a God?" means that there has to be a God. YOU cannot ask a question about something that has never existed. If it never existed, then it would not be in the mind of man to even contemplate BECAUSE "it" never was and never has been. You can only posit a question of something that is in the mind of man to posit. And it can only be in the mind of man if it really is there.

Take a moment and think of all our mythology, all our questions etc. I can think of a centaur because I know of a horse and a man. I can confuse that fact that there are horses and men with the conclusion that there are Centaurs but I cannot deny that horses and men exist. Think about aliens. I can only think of extraterrestial life because it exist somewhere out there for me to conceive of it. Now I can confuse the fact that there are alien entities out there with my conclusion that they are little green men (as opposed to inter dimensional beings?) but something, some entity, had to give the cause for the thing, the concept, to spawn in the first place.

You as an Atheist can say to me "You are off in your conclusion of what God is" but the fact that I say there is a God cannot be denied, nor can the "archetypal event or the " it" for my statement of fact be denied.

Samuel, you can dispute the understanding of what the God thing is all about. You can even dispute the conclusions that the God squad arrive at concerning the God Dude. But the one thing you cannot do is make the God Dude not exist.... you would have no atheism if you had no God. I do not deny that you say there is no God, but your saying so doesn't make it so. Just like my saying there is a God does not make it so. God exists independently of my saying he exists. We have concepts of God because some God Thing exists and it is because some God Thing does exist that we have atheism.

MAN CANNOT DENY THE EXISTENCE OF SOMETHING HE SAYS DOES NOT EXIST. IF IT NEVER WAS, THEN IT COULD NEVER BE DISCUSSED, CONFIRMED OR DENIED BECAUSE IT NEVER WAS. PERIOD.

We have the concept of God in the human psyche because "God" exist somewhere yet to be discovered. The new world was not the new world, it already existed. It was discovered but was always there. Land exists, land masses exist, water exists etc. and so man could conceive of finding a new world. His finding it did not make it so, its pre-existence did.

Same with God. If there was no God. Period. The end. NO GOD, then there could be no God concept. So whether you like it or not you are not an atheist. You only think you are! Perhaps you are an observer of the bad things people have done with religion but that makes you - not an atheist but a disliker of hate.

It is a true fact: you truly do not believe in God but your disbelief in God has been confused with the conclusion that there is no God. You can have the former as belief. You cannot however prove the latter and in fact the latter proves itself to be impossible.

Hmmmmm...... Missed it by that much

Agent 86

You say that I am not an atheist, however everybody is an atheist to a degree. Atheism is simply not believing in a god, so Christians lack the belief in gods of other religions. Muslims lack the belief in gods of other religions as well. The only difference is that I believe in one less god (unless we are talking about hinduism or polytheists, in that case I believe in several less gods, but the concept is still there).

The fact that nobody could have thought of a god without a god being there is irrelevant. In the bible it says that we are designed in his image, therefore he resembles us. Humans were around to think up a human-shaped god. And the imaginary part. Were there not thoughts of something not being there?

And clearly saying that something doesn't exist doesn't make it not exist. That's more of a religious thing to think such as prayer and whatnot. I know that me not believing in a god dude doesn't make it so, and I am not trying to make him or her not exist by wishing it away. I simply observed the facts and have concluded that there is no possible god that would f*** things up this badly and still be considered an "all loving" god.

Nice posts though. Long, but nice.

That is an incorrect definition of atheism. I think I already told you this but I'll reiterate it for your viewing pleasure.

Atheism is the belief that there is no God, at all, what so ever. That is what a-theist is. Not at theist. A theist believes in a God, an atheist believes in no god. Not a different God, no god.

And as for God messing things up, most people believe Satan of some other evil dude did that, wait, this is starting to sound like a comic book.

Now you know how I feel about religion, VIP

Wait Sam, did you even read the WHOLE reply? I feel your question was a little out of context.

I did read it, I just felt I should touch on certain topics. Plus I didn't remember everything I wanted to say.

I dont know everyone's family environment, but let's say, in a family that is functional (are there any of those anymore???)... a parent teaches, trains, educates the child. but, as the child grows, the parent knows to let that child experience the good or bad repercussions of their own decisions. the parent monitors those decisions of course, cuz at 10 years old the child does not have the maturity to make certain choices in life, cuz the wrong choice could be deadly. But, the parent slowly lengthens the rope holding the child close to their control. The child learns to make choices, deal with repercussions of those choices, and eventually he moves out of the house and is fully responsible for his own actions. Hopefully, the parent has given the child enough wisdom to be able to make a good life for himself. This is maturing.

Same with God. Sometimes he 'leaves us to ourselves', and we learn by our mistakes, make choices that are good / bad, and must suffer the repercussions of those choices. We are living our lives, God is not living our lives for us. Therefore... WE have messed things up. If I choose to drug up and fry my brain out by the time I hit 17... that is MY choice, not God's. I must deal with the consequences. The good news is, that although God does not change the outcome of my behavior, He promises to always stand with me, show me He is there, and somehow give me the grace and peace to muddle my way thru. THAT is the promise.

I believe this is the misunderstanding many people have, even those who call themselves "christians". God never said he would take away the problems, fix our mistakes, make us do what he wants, etc... That is one of those 'boxes' that MAN has made up, not God. There is nothing in the Bible saying God promised that.

What he does promise is that He walks with us. Through our lives. And, we can seek him, know him, get guidance from him. Get strength from him. etc...

Wow, Spybabe7, extremely well put. In a couple of paragraphs you wonderfully explained a difficult topic.

God created us with a freewill, and allows us to go through our lives experiencing the ups and downs related to our decisions. But He is always there for us, and, He does promise that in all things they will ultimately work out for our good. We may not understand why we are experiencing certain situations, and may not feel that He is with us at times, but through faith we know He is, and that He will turn every situation ultimately to our benefit (cf. Romans 8:28)

I would point the readers to two relatively short studies that will address our freewill and why we go through trials from a biblical standpoint. They are located at FoundationsForOurFaith.com. The two studies are: Freewill and Trials. Would enjoy receiving feedback on the studies.

wow!!!! spybabe that was awesome!! i never really knew how to explain that myself and sometimes felt bad because i felt like i should! but now i get it thanks soooo much!!