EMW

If God chose us, then how did we choose him, and if he chose us, then he chose others to go to hell. Any thoughts?

envisageworks wrote:If God chose us, then how did we choose him, and if he chose us, then he chose others to go to hell. Any thoughts?

That depends. I don't think God knows the future. I think he started us off via evolution and we take care of the rest. I do think he influences us and others, so when you get that little thought in your head, that's him. People who do not live good lives do not get the little voice.

I don't know exactly what I think about heaven and hell yet. But I think we choose our ultimate fate through our actions.

Haha. Wooooowwwww. Hold up. I take it that you are not a Christian, or that you do not classify yourself as one who takes information from the Bible, which is fine, but not good backup for a christian post.

Yeah, the Bible clearly clearly states that God is not in time. That he was here forever, and will be here forever, and that he does not live in time like we do.

I would do some research on quantum physics. It is really really really interesting. The 4th dimension is outside of time. We are stuck in time. I feel that God is waaayyy above the fourth dimension, and that we shouldn't limit him to time.

The Bible also says that "He chose us, before we chose him". So yeah, it clearly states this.

Time is an actual object. It can be bent with gravity, and at some points around the Earth, time is not the same. The faster you go, the more time slows down, and the bigger you get. If you where to go the speed of light, you would not be in existance because time would be stopped, and you would be huge. The Bible says that God is light, which is interesting, becuase he does not have a size, and he is outside of time, and he is everywhere.

I do not think that God is a man at all. He does not think the same way, act the same way, or work the same way. Putting him into time takes away from everything he has done.

envisageworks wrote:Haha. Wooooowwwww. Hold up. I take it that you are not a Christian, or that you do not classify yourself as one who takes information from the Bible, which is fine, but not good backup for a christian post.

Yeah, the Bible clearly clearly states that God is not in time. That he was here forever, and will be here forever, and that he does not live in time like we do.

I would do some research on quantum physics. It is really really really interesting. The 4th dimension is outside of time. We are stuck in time. I feel that God is waaayyy above the fourth dimension, and that we shouldn't limit him to time.

The Bible also says that "He chose us, before we chose him". So yeah, it clearly states this.

Time is an actual object. It can be bent with gravity, and at some points around the Earth, time is not the same. The faster you go, the more time slows down, and the bigger you get. If you where to go the speed of light, you would not be in existance because time would be stopped, and you would be huge. The Bible says that God is light, which is interesting, becuase he does not have a size, and he is outside of time, and he is everywhere.

I do not think that God is a man at all. He does not think the same way, act the same way, or work the same way. Putting him into time takes away from everything he has done.

Of course God is not man.
Now, I don't think the Bible is acceptable evidence. If it were, it would have a more exact explanation, but the easiest they could convey his existence back then was to liken him to light, which is ever present.

I don't get the argument. The bible says God is eternal, and that time is not of him. He definitely knows the future. The Bible is very very clear about that.

So either god lied in the bible or Adam and Eve were light?

And rackfocus, I hope you realize that you believe in intelligent design which is pretty much religion trying not to be outdated by the facts that they fought against and killed to subdue.

samuelrj wrote:So either god lied in the bible or Adam and Eve were light?

And rackfocus, I hope you realize that you believe in intelligent design which is pretty much religion trying not to be outdated by the facts that they fought against and killed to subdue.

No, I don't believe in "intelligent design". Intelligent design stands in opposition to natural selection, which I believe in. I said I believe God started it off. So he created the Big Bang, so to speak, and let it evolve from there.

God didn't write the Bible, so God couldn't have "lied". And again, I believe the Bible is a man-made retelling of stories in the Christian and Judaism religions.

Great. Another denomination.

The bible doesnt tel you that that happened, so couldnt you possibly go to hell for not trusting the word of god which was written through a human?

samuelrj wrote:Great. Another denomination.

The bible doesnt tel you that that happened, so couldnt you possibly go to hell for not trusting the word of god which was written through a human?

What?

If I don't believe the Bible is the word of God, why would I think I could go to hell? I think the Bible is the same as the mythology of the Greeks...a way to explain life around them while exalting their God.

Wait, you believe that the bible is stolen from the greeks, and evolution happened? What aspect of your beliefs are religious, so I can talk about that.

samuelrj wrote:Wait, you believe that the bible is stolen from the greeks, and evolution happened? What aspect of your beliefs are religious, so I can talk about that.

No, the Bible isn't stolen from the Greeks. Since the beginning of man, folklore has existed to explain life. I believe the Bible was one religion's way of not only explaining life, but exalting God through legend.

I'm not religious. I've already said that in various other debates. Religion is man-made.

Damn
Mac lover
non religious

pretty awesome person, i must say

samuelrj wrote:Damn
Mac lover
non religious

pretty awesome person, i must say

What do you mean by that?

Trying to give a compliment

Apparently it didnt work.

What does it mean to be "all knowing"?. More importantly can we who are all "not knowing" even conceive of a being that is, and could we even comprehend what such an entity would be like, or what that personality could be saying if that personality would want to say anything at all?

All knowing is not the same as "all seeing". I am not saying that an "all knowing" entity cannot be "all seeing" but that the way people are discussing this thing is like looking at a time line of future events and that this God dude is merely seeing what people are doing with the choices before them. Some are intimating that God is determining the outcomes Himself. All knowing means much more than that.

Some here have referred to the God Dude as being outside of time. Time being a creation of the God Dude and that like an artist stands outside of their painting the God Dude is looking upon his creation in much the same manner. Others here have talked about the unfolding of interactions, permutations and advancement/set backs of evolution that take place alone inside this world as we know it. No God Dude, just existing matter & energy with all its possible combinations unfolding over time.

The Atheist then and the God people are both observing a commonality: Something is in existence for us to contemplate. This something is infused with life and that life has personality. It exist in both its imminent form (the bits & pieces & direct action) and in a transcendent form (the existing infinite possible combinations that have yet to unfold but are even now in play).

It is then, the interaction defining or revealing the actual outcome itself (the actual "what is" as opposed to 'what could be - that is what is at issue.

So we have two clear conclusions here:

1) Something "is", i.e. something exists.

2) That which exist is in interaction:

a) it is in interaction with itself but not just with itself.
b) that the something is actually an interaction in itself
c) that the something is being acted upon

So...What is the nature of the interaction taking place? Is it personal or impersonal? Living or non living? Are there mere forces at work or is there something personally involved in this? Are the mere forces the personality itself. Are the thoughts you think you or just a byproduct of you being you? Is Earth as an ecosystem more than just the sum of its parts? Is it living like a plant is living or a dog is living or a person is living? The hand of a man draws a picture but though the hand in itself is living tissue the hand is not alive: The man is.

Something "IS" and that something is in interaction with other somethings. It is the interaction of the "IS" which is a problem for the atheistic position. NOTE: I am not arguing first causes here. I am not saying "a-ha, you atheist - you have no way to explain how it all came into being in the first place. I am actually giving you that as a premise. The God Squad says God just is. Defacto. No Creator of the creator needed. The Atheist says matter& energy just is. Defacto. No creator of the matter & energy needed. The issue is the NATURE of what is and the interaction it has with what may be.

The "what may be" at some point becomes the "what is" and the "what is" creates another series of "what could be's". The God squad is stating that the situation has arisen out of a God starting and determining events. The atheist is saying that the properties and attributes of the "what is" determines the what "will be" and thus the next round of the"what is's" and you don't need a creator to explain this.

They are right: You don't need a creator to explain stuff. You need a Creator first and foremost to give meaning to stuff! The explaination is secondary to the meaning or the value. Starting with a Creator means that the interaction is no longer simply an interaction: It is a relationship. The chair has meaning too the man who made it. Te painting in the museum has meaning in relationship to the people who see it. That same picture, in the woods, has no meaning or value or understanding or relationship with the bears, the bugs or the birds. The sculpted marble has value and purpose in relationship to the one who made it. The earth has value to a Creator but not to its energetic material components. The hand has meaning to the man. The living tissue of the hand is valuable to the man. It has no meaning to the elements that make up the man - but to the man himself.

That means when we talk about "all knowing" it really is about relationship. It is about the personal relationship of both the [transcendent and imminent], It is about the particulars and the universals. It is about both the outside and inside of creation. Being Alive and dead. Inside the 3 dimensional world and the 11th dimensional world [simultaneously] and outside them simultaneously. The transcendent/particular vs. universal aspect means that each individual act has the infusion of purpose and that things have value in relationship to that which gives them value.

The fact that the combinations of possibilities will at some point converge to be no longer "the possible" but become the "actual" means that the atheist has mathematical combinations but the God Squad has something intrinsically worth knowing or having.

If God is all knowing then first and foremost there has got to be something out there worth His knowing and capable of being known. However, the universe without God is not knowable to anyone other than man and even if there were aliens to also know the universe then the universe would only have meaning to man & the aliens....but neither man nor the aliens would have any meaning in and of themselves because there would be no creator to give them meaning. They, like the universe they discover, ultimately have no meaning. Existence is just as valid as non-existence. Whether a rock, amoeba or man what is taking place is this universe is an interaction.- the nature of the interaction is ultimately one of value and meaning.

"If God is all knowing...." really ends up asking:

"Is there something in this Universe that is worth knowing... and capable of being known. NOT FROM MANS PERSPECTIVE BUT FROM SOMEONE ELSE'S.... like the God Dude?

SamuelRJ started out with a man asking a question bout God but in true paradox he has really ended up with God asking a question of man!

SamuelRJ, atheist and asker of questions - are you worth being known and are you capable of being known?

- Agent 86